eryxias- 第4部分

SOCRATES：　　And　if　without　gold　or　silver　or　anything　else　which　we　do　not

use　directly　for　the　body　in　the　way　that　we　do　food　and　drink　and　bedding

and　houses；if　without　these　we　could　satisfy　the　wants　of　the　body；　they

would　be　of　no　use　to　us　for　that　purpose？



ERYXIAS：　　They　would　not。



SOCRATES：　　They　would　no　longer　be　regarded　as　wealth；　because　they　are

useless；　whereas　that　would　be　wealth　which　enabled　us　to　obtain　what　was

useful　to　us？



ERYXIAS：　　O　Socrates；　you　will　never　be　able　to　persuade　me　that　gold　and

silver　and　similar　things　are　not　wealth。　　But　I　am　very　strongly　of

opinion　that　things　which　are　useless　to　us　are　not　wealth；　and　that　the

money　which　is　useful　for　this　purpose　is　of　the　greatest　use；　not　that

these　things　are　not　useful　towards　life；　if　by　them　we　can　procure　wealth。



SOCRATES：　　And　how　would　you　answer　another　question？　　There　are　persons；

are　there　not；　who　teach　music　and　grammar　and　other　arts　for　pay；　and　thus

procure　those　things　of　which　they　stand　in　need？



ERYXIAS：　　There　are。



SOCRATES：　　And　these　men　by　the　arts　which　they　profess；　and　in　exchange

for　them；　obtain　the　necessities　of　life　just　as　we　do　by　means　of　gold　and

silver？



ERYXIAS：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　Then　if　they　procure　by　this　means　what　they　want　for　the

purposes　of　life；　that　art　will　be　useful　towards　life？　　For　do　we　not　say

that　silver　is　useful　because　it　enables　us　to　supply　our　bodily　needs？



ERYXIAS：　　We　do。



SOCRATES：　　Then　if　these　arts　are　reckoned　among　things　useful；　the　arts

are　wealth　for　the　same　reason　as　gold　and　silver　are；　for；　clearly；　the

possession　of　them　gives　wealth。　　Yet　a　little　while　ago　we　found　it

difficult　to　accept　the　argument　which　proved　that　the　wisest　are　the

wealthiest。　　But　now　there　seems　no　escape　from　this　conclusion。　　Suppose

that　we　are　asked；　'Is　a　horse　useful　to　everybody？'　will　not　our　reply　be；

'No；　but　only　to　those　who　know　how　to　use　a　horse？'



ERYXIAS：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　so；　too；　physic　is　not　useful　to　every　one；　but　only　to　him

who　knows　how　to　use　it？



ERYXIAS：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　And　the　same　is　the　case　with　everything　else？



ERYXIAS：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　Then　gold　and　silver　and　all　the　other　elements　which　are

supposed　to　make　up　wealth　are　only　useful　to　the　person　who　knows　how　to

use　them？



ERYXIAS：　　Exactly。



SOCRATES：　　And　were　we　not　saying　before　that　it　was　the　business　of　a　good

man　and　a　gentleman　to　know　where　and　how　anything　should　be　used？



ERYXIAS：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　The　good　and　gentle；　therefore　will　alone　have　profit　from　these

things；　supposing　at　least　that　they　know　how　to　use　them。　　But　if　so；　to

them　only　will　they　seem　to　be　wealth。　　It　appears；　however；　that　where　a

person　is　ignorant　of　riding；　and　has　horses　which　are　useless　to　him；　if

some　one　teaches　him　that　art；　he　makes　him　also　richer；　for　what　was

before　useless　has　now　become　useful　to　him；　and　in　giving　him　knowledge　he

has　also　conferred　riches　upon　him。



ERYXIAS：　　That　is　the　case。



SOCRATES：　　Yet　I　dare　be　sworn　that　Critias　will　not　be　moved　a　whit　by　the

argument。



CRITIAS：　　No；　by　heaven；　I　should　be　a　madman　if　I　were。　　But　why　do　you

not　finish　the　argument　which　proves　that　gold　and　silver　and　other　things

which　seem　to　be　wealth　are　not　real　wealth？　　For　I　have　been　exceedingly

delighted　to　hear　the　discourses　which　you　have　just　been　holding。



SOCRATES：　　My　argument；　Critias　（I　said）；　appears　to　have　given　you　the

same　kind　of　pleasure　which　you　might　have　derived　from　some　rhapsode's

recitation　of　Homer；　for　you　do　not　believe　a　word　of　what　has　been　said。　

But　come　now；　give　me　an　answer　to　this　question。　　Are　not　certain　things

useful　to　the　builder　when　he　is　building　a　house？



CRITIAS：　　They　are。



SOCRATES：　　And　would　you　say　that　those　things　are　useful　which　are

employed　in　house　building；stones　and　bricks　and　beams　and　the　like；　and

also　the　instruments　with　which　the　builder　built　the　house；　the　beams　and

stones　which　they　provided；　and　again　the　instruments　by　which　these　were

obtained？



CRITIAS：　　It　seems　to　me　that　they　are　all　useful　for　building。



SOCRATES：　　And　is　it　not　true　of　every　art；　that　not　only　the　materials　but

the　instruments　by　which　we　procure　them　and　without　which　the　work　could

not　go　on；　are　useful　for　that　art？



CRITIAS：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　further；　the　instruments　by　which　the　instruments　are

procured；　and　so　on；　going　back　from　stage　to　stage　ad　infinitum；are　not

all　these；　in　your　opinion；　necessary　in　order　to　carry　out　the　work？



CRITIAS：　　We　may　fairly　suppose　such　to　be　the　case。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　a　man　has　food　and　drink　and　clothes　and　the　other　things

which　are　useful　to　the　body；　would　he　need　gold　or　silver　or　any　other

means　by　which　he　could　procure　that　which　he　now　has？



CRITIAS：　　I　do　not　think　so。



SOCRATES：　　Then　you　consider　that　a　man　never　wants　any　of　these　things　for

the　use　of　the　body？



CRITIAS：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　they　appear　useless　to　this　end；　ought　they　not　always　to

appear　useless？　　For　we　have　already　laid　down　the　principle　that　things


cannot　be　at　one　time　useful　and　at　another　time　not；　in　the　same　process。



CRITIAS：　　But　in　that　respect　your　argument　and　mine　are　the　same。　　For　you

maintain　if　they　are　useful　to　a　certain　end；　they　can　never　become

useless；　whereas　I　say　that　in　order　to　accomplish　some　results　bad　things

are　needed；　and　good　for　others。



SOCRATES：　　But　can　a　bad　thing　be　used　to　carry　out　a　good　purpose？



CRITIAS：　　I　should　say　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　we　call　those　actions　good　which　a　man　does　for　the　sake　of

virtue？




CRITIAS：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　But　can　a　man　learn　any　kind　of　knowledge　which　is　imparted　by

word　of　mouth　if　he　is　wholly　deprived　of　the　sense　of　hearing？



CRITIAS：　　Certainly　not；　I　think。



SOCRATES：　　And　will　not　hearing　be　useful　for　virtue；　if　virtue　is　taught

by　hearing　and　we　use　the　sense　of　hearing　in　giving　instruction？



CRITIAS：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　since　medicine　frees　the　sick　man　from　his　disease；　that　art

too　may　sometimes　appear　useful　in　the　acquisition　of　virtue；　e。g。　when

hearing　is　procured　by　the　aid　of　medicine。



CRITIAS：　　Very　likely。



SOCRATES：　　But　if；　again；　we　obtain　by　wealth　the　aid　of　medicine；　shall　we

not　regard　wealth　as　useful　for　virtue？



CRITIAS：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　And　also　the　instruments　by　which　wealth　is　procured？



CRITIAS：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　Then　you　think　that　a　man　may　gain　wealth　by　bad　and　disgraceful

means；　and；　having　obtained　the　aid　of　medicine　which　enables　him　to

acquire　the　power　of　hearing；　may　use　that　very　faculty　for　the　acquisition

of　virtue？



CRITIAS：　　Yes；　I　do。



SOCRATES：　　But　can　that　which　is　evil　be　useful　for　virtue？



CRITIAS：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　It　is　not　therefore　necessary　that　the　means　by　which　we　obtain

what　is　useful　for　a　certain　object　should　always　be　useful　for　the　same

object：　　for　it　seems　that　bad　actions　may　sometimes　serve　good　purposes？　

The　matter　will　be　still　plainer　if　we　look　at　it　in　this　way：If　things

are　useful　towards　the　several　ends　for　which　they　exist；　which　ends　would

not　come　into　existence　without　them；　how　would　you　regard　them？　　Can

ignorance；　for　instance；　be　useful　for　knowledge；　or　disease　for　health；　or

vice　for　virtue？



CRITIAS：　　Never。



SOCRATES：　　And　yet　we　have　already　agreedhave　we　not？that　there　can　be

no　knowledge　where　there　has　not　previously　been　ignorance；　nor　health

where　there　has　not　been　disease；　nor　virtue　where　there　has　not　been　vice？



CRITIAS：　　I　think　that　we　have。



SOCRATES：　　But　then　it　would　seem　that　the　antecedents　without　which　a

thing　cannot　exist　are　not　necessarily　useful　to　it。　　Otherwise　ignorance

would　appear　useful　for　knowledge；　disease　for　health；　and　vice　for　virtue。



Critias　still　showed　great　reluctance　to　accept　any　argument　which　went　to

prove　that　all　these　things　were　useless。　　I　saw　that　it　was　as　difficult

to　persuade　him　as　（according　to　the　proverb）　it　is　to　boil　a　stone；　so　I

said：　　Let　us　bid　'good…bye'　to　the　discussion；　since　we　cannot　agree

whether　these　things　are　useful　and　a　part　of　wealth　or　not。　　But　what

shall　we　say　to　another　question：　　Which　is　the　happier　and　better　man；he

who　requires　the　greatest　quantity　of　necessaries　for　body　and　diet；　or　he

who　requires　only　the　fewest　and　least？　　The　answer　will　perhaps　become

more　obvious　if　we　suppose　some　one；　comparing　the　man　himself　at　different

times；　to　consider　whether　his　condition　is　better　when　he　is　sick　or　when

he　is　well？



CRITIAS：　　That　is　not　a　question　which　needs　much　consideration。



SOCRATES：　　Probably；　I　said；　every　one　can　understand　that　health　is　a

better　condition　than　disease。　　But　when　have　we　the　greatest　and　the　most

various　needs；　when　we　are　sick　or　when　we　are　well？



CRITIAS：　　When　we　are　sick。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　we　are　in　the　worst　state　we　have　the　greatest　and　most

especial　need　and　desire　of　bodily　pleasures？



CRITIAS：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　And　seeing　that　a　man　is　best　off　when　he　is　least　in　need　of

such　things；　does　not　the　same　reasoning　apply　to　the　case　of　any　two

persons；　of　whom　one　has　many　and　great　wants　and　desires；　and　the　other

few　and　moderate？　　For　instance；　some　men　are　gamblers；　some　drunkards；　and

some　gluttons：　　and　gambling　and　the　love　of　drink　and　greediness　are　all

desires？



CRITIAS：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　But　desires　are　only　the　lack　of　something：　　and　those　who　have

the　greatest　desires　are　in　a　worse　condition　than　those　who　have　none　or

very　slight　ones？



CRITIAS：　　Certainly　I　consider　that　those　who　have　such　wants　are　bad；　and

that　the　greater　their　wants　the　worse　they　are。