laches- 第4部分

we　have　as　yet　decided　what　that　is　about　which　we　are　consulting；　when　we



ask　which　of　us　is　or　is　not　skilled　in　the　art；　and　has　or　has　not　had　a



teacher　of　the　art。







NICIAS：　　Why；　Socrates；　is　not　the　question　whether　young　men　ought　or



ought　not　to　learn　the　art　of　fighting　in　armour？







SOCRATES：　　Yes；　Nicias；　but　there　is　also　a　prior　question；　which　I　may



illustrate　in　this　way：　　When　a　person　considers　about　applying　a　medicine



to　the　eyes；　would　you　say　that　he　is　consulting　about　the　medicine　or



about　the　eyes？







NICIAS：　　About　the　eyes。







SOCRATES：　　And　when　he　considers　whether　he　shall　set　a　bridle　on　a　horse



and　at　what　time；　he　is　thinking　of　the　horse　and　not　of　the　bridle？







NICIAS：　　True。







SOCRATES：　　And　in　a　word；　when　he　considers　anything　for　the　sake　of



another　thing；　he　thinks　of　the　end　and　not　of　the　means？







NICIAS：　　Certainly。







SOCRATES：　　And　when　you　call　in　an　adviser；　you　should　see　whether　he　too





is　skilful　in　the　accomplishment　of　the　end　which　you　have　in　view？







NICIAS：　　Most　true。







SOCRATES：　　And　at　present　we　have　in　view　some　knowledge；　of　which　the　end



is　the　soul　of　youth？







NICIAS：　　Yes。







SOCRATES：　　And　we　are　enquiring；　Which　of　us　is　skilful　or　successful　in



the　treatment　of　the　soul；　and　which　of　us　has　had　good　teachers？







LACHES：　　Well　but；　Socrates；　did　you　never　observe　that　some　persons；　who



have　had　no　teachers；　are　more　skilful　than　those　who　have；　in　some　things？







SOCRATES：　　Yes；　Laches；　I　have　observed　that；　but　you　would　not　be　very



willing　to　trust　them　if　they　only　professed　to　be　masters　of　their　art；



unless　they　could　show　some　proof　of　their　skill　or　excellence　in　one　or



more　works。







LACHES：　　That　is　true。







SOCRATES：　　And　therefore；　Laches　and　Nicias；　as　Lysimachus　and　Melesias；　in



their　anxiety　to　improve　the　minds　of　their　sons；　have　asked　our　advice



about　them；　we　too　should　tell　them　who　our　teachers　were；　if　we　say　that



we　have　had　any；　and　prove　them　to　be　in　the　first　place　men　of　merit　and



experienced　trainers　of　the　minds　of　youth　and　also　to　have　been　really　our



teachers。　　Or　if　any　of　us　says　that　he　has　no　teacher；　but　that　he　has



works　of　his　own　to　show；　then　he　should　point　out　to　them　what　Athenians



or　strangers；　bond　or　free；　he　is　generally　acknowledged　to　have　improved。　



But　if　he　can　show　neither　teachers　nor　works；　then　he　should　tell　them　to



look　out　for　others；　and　not　run　the　risk　of　spoiling　the　children　of



friends；　and　thereby　incurring　the　most　formidable　accusation　which　can　be



brought　against　any　one　by　those　nearest　to　him。　　As　for　myself；　Lysimachus



and　Melesias；　I　am　the　first　to　confess　that　I　have　never　had　a　teacher　of



the　art　of　virtue；　although　I　have　always　from　my　earliest　youth　desired　to



have　one。　　But　I　am　too　poor　to　give　money　to　the　Sophists；　who　are　the



only　professors　of　moral　improvement；　and　to　this　day　I　have　never　been



able　to　discover　the　art　myself；　though　I　should　not　be　surprised　if　Nicias



or　Laches　may　have　discovered　or　learned　it；　for　they　are　far　wealthier



than　I　am；　and　may　therefore　have　learnt　of　others。　　And　they　are　older



too；　so　that　they　have　had　more　time　to　make　the　discovery。　　And　I　really



believe　that　they　are　able　to　educate　a　man；　for　unless　they　had　been



confident　in　their　own　knowledge；　they　would　never　have　spoken　thus



decidedly　of　the　pursuits　which　are　advantageous　or　hurtful　to　a　young　man。　



I　repose　confidence　in　both　of　them；　but　I　am　surprised　to　find　that　they



differ　from　one　another。　　And　therefore；　Lysimachus；　as　Laches　suggested



that　you　should　detain　me；　and　not　let　me　go　until　I　answered；　I　in　turn



earnestly　beseech　and　advise　you　to　detain　Laches　and　Nicias；　and　question



them。　　I　would　have　you　say　to　them：　　Socrates　avers　that　he　has　no



knowledge　of　the　matterhe　is　unable　to　decide　which　of　you　speaks　truly；



neither　discoverer　nor　student　is　he　of　anything　of　the　kind。　　But　you；



Laches　and　Nicias；　should　each　of　you　tell　us　who　is　the　most　skilful



educator　whom　you　have　ever　known；　and　whether　you　invented　the　art



yourselves；　or　learned　of　another；　and　if　you　learned；　who　were　your



respective　teachers；　and　who　were　their　brothers　in　the　art；　and　then；　if



you　are　too　much　occupied　in　politics　to　teach　us　yourselves；　let　us　go　to



them；　and　present　them　with　gifts；　or　make　interest　with　them；　or　both；　in



the　hope　that　they　may　be　induced　to　take　charge　of　our　children　and　of



yours；　and　then　they　will　not　grow　up　inferior；　and　disgrace　their



ancestors。　　But　if　you　are　yourselves　original　discoverers　in　that　field；



give　us　some　proof　of　your　skill。　　Who　are　they　who；　having　been　inferior



persons；　have　become　under　your　care　good　and　noble？　　For　if　this　is　your



first　attempt　at　education；　there　is　a　danger　that　you　may　be　trying　the



experiment；　not　on　the　'vile　corpus'　of　a　Carian　slave；　but　on　your　own



sons；　or　the　sons　of　your　friend；　and；　as　the　proverb　says；　'break　the



large　vessel　in　learning　to　make　pots。'　　Tell　us　then；　what　qualities　you



claim　or　do　not　claim。　　Make　them　tell　you　that；　Lysimachus；　and　do　not　let



them　off。







LYSIMACHUS：　　I　very　much　approve　of　the　words　of　Socrates；　my　friends；　but



you；　Nicias　and　Laches；　must　determine　whether　you　will　be　questioned；　and



give　an　explanation　about　matters　of　this　sort。　　Assuredly；　I　and　Melesias



would　be　greatly　pleased　to　hear　you　answer　the　questions　which　Socrates



asks；　if　you　will：　　for　I　began　by　saying　that　we　took　you　into　our



counsels　because　we　thought　that　you　would　have　attended　to　the　subject；



especially　as　you　have　children　who；　like　our　own；　are　nearly　of　an　age　to



be　educated。　　Well；　then；　if　you　have　no　objection；　suppose　that　you　take



Socrates　into　partnership；　and　do　you　and　he　ask　and　answer　one　another's



questions：　　for；　as　he　has　well　said；　we　are　deliberating　about　the　most



important　of　our　concerns。　　I　hope　that　you　will　see　fit　to　comply　with　our



request。







NICIAS：　　I　see　very　clearly；　Lysimachus；　that　you　have　only　known　Socrates'



father；　and　have　no　acquaintance　with　Socrates　himself：　　at　least；　you　can



only　have　known　him　when　he　was　a　child；　and　may　have　met　him　among　his



fellow…wardsmen；　in　company　with　his　father；　at　a　sacrifice；　or　at　some



other　gathering。　　You　clearly　show　that　you　have　never　known　him　since　he



arrived　at　manhood。







LYSIMACHUS：　　Why　do　you　say　that；　Nicias？







NICIAS：　　Because　you　seem　not　to　be　aware　that　any　one　who　has　an



intellectual　affinity　to　Socrates　and　enters　into　conversation　with　him　is



liable　to　be　drawn　into　an　argument；　and　whatever　subject　he　may　start；　he



will　be　continually　carried　round　and　round　by　him；　until　at　last　he　finds



that　he　has　to　give　an　account　both　of　his　present　and　past　life；　and　when



he　is　once　entangled；　Socrates　will　not　let　him　go　until　he　has　completely



and　thoroughly　sifted　him。　　Now　I　am　used　to　his　ways；　and　I　know　that　he



will　certainly　do　as　I　say；　and　also　that　I　myself　shall　be　the　sufferer；



for　I　am　fond　of　his　conversation；　Lysimachus。　　And　I　think　that　there　is



no　harm　in　being　reminded　of　any　wrong　thing　which　we　are；　or　have　been；



doing：　　he　who　does　not　fly　from　reproof　will　be　sure　to　take　more　heed　of



his　after…life；　as　Solon　says；　he　will　wish　and　desire　to　be　learning　so



long　as　he　lives；　and　will　not　think　that　old　age　of　itself　brings　wisdom。　



To　me；　to　be　cross…examined　by　Socrates　is　neither　unusual　nor　unpleasant；



indeed；　I　knew　all　along　that　where　Socrates　was；　the　argument　would　soon



pass　from　our　sons　to　ourselves；　and　therefore；　I　say　that　for　my　part；　I



am　quite　willing　to　discourse　with　Socrates　in　his　own　manner；　but　you　had



better　ask　our　friend　Laches　what　his　feeling　may　be。







LACHES：　　I　have　but　one　feeling；　Nicias；　or　（shall　I　say？）　two　feelings；



about　discussions。　　Some　would　think　that　I　am　a　lover；　and　to　others　I　may



seem　to　be　a　hater　of　discourse；　for　when　I　hear　a　man　discoursing　of



virtue；　or　of　any　sort　of　wisdom；　who　is　a　true　man　and　worthy　of　his



theme；　I　am　delighted　beyond　measure：　　and　I　compare　the　man　and　his　words；



and　note　the　harmony　and　correspondence　of　them。　　And　such　an　one　I　deem　to



be　the　true　musician；　attuned　to　a　fairer　harmony　than　that　of　the　lyre；　or



any　pleasant　instrument　of　music；　for　truly　he　has　in　his　own　life　a



harmony　of　words　and　deeds　arranged；　not　in　the　Ionian；　or　in　the　Phrygian



mode；　nor　yet　in　the　Lydian；　but　in　the　true　Hellenic　mode；　which　is　the



Dorian；　and　no　other。　　Such　an　one　makes　me　merry　with　the　sound　of　his



voice；　and　when　I　hear　him　I　am　thought　to　be　a　lover　of　discourse；　so



eager　am　I　in　drinking　in　his　words。　　But　a　man　whose　actions　do　not　agree



with　his　words　is　an　annoyance　to　me；　and　the　better　he　speaks　the　more　I



hate　him；　and　then　I　seem　to　be　a　hater　of　discourse。　　As　to　Socrates；　I



have　no　knowledge　of　his　words；　but　of　old；　as　would　seem；　I　have　had



experience　of　his　deeds；　and　his　deeds　show　that　free　and　noble　sentiments



are　natural　to　him。　　And　if　his　words　accord；　then　I　am　of　one　mind　with



him；　and　shall　be　delighted　to　be　interrogated　by　a　man　such　as　he　is；　and



shall　not　be　annoyed　at　having　to　learn　of　him：　　for　I　too　agree　with



Solon；　'that　I　would　fain　grow　old；　learning　many　things。'　　But　I　must　be



allowed　to　add　'of　the　good　only。'　　Socrates　must　be　willing　to　allow　th